Untitled Document

Australian Broadcasting Corporation
October 10, 2001
- transcript-

A leader's dream for peace and prosperity

MARES: Xanana Gusmao, Welcome to Asia Pacific. First of all I wanted to ask
you about the difficulty of balancing the desire for justice in East Timor
with the need for reconciliation and forgiveness. How do you balance those
two things?

GUSMAO: I think the important question is how can we achieve peace? Putting
this question in mind we can balance the two problems. Of course we will not
deny justice, the need of justice that if we look at justice in very formal
way in terms of trial, punishment, prison, maybe we don't solve the
situation, the situation of the feeling of the people and that's why to
reconcile two sides it needs one who can reconsider, can recognise that he
did mistakes and from the other side the willingness to forgive - that is
reconciliation. Reconciliation is not only to bring back and to punish, this
is not reconciliation this is justice, but are we able to put hundreds of
people of militias into jail and feeding them? Because I went to every place
in East Timor and what people are demanding is education for their children,
health, because the problem of health is a very, very big challenge for us
also. And some infrastructure that facilitates their lives. This is why -
taking all of this into account - why we don't solve the problem of justice
in other ways by giving the opportunity to the people to speak. To, to speak
out.

MARES: So does that mean a truth and reconciliation commission?

GUSMAO: Yes and to the perpetrators to ask for forgiveness, to recognise
their mistake and to ask for forgiveness, because if you see the destruction
that happened in East Timor was not by their own, the militias, their own
initiative, this is why I don't see when we talk about international tribunal
it is for East Timorese. If it is not for East Timorese let us solve our
problem and the community's already told me that bring back them we will live
together, we will punish them in our way, we will demand to them oh, you
burnt this house, help us and build together.

MARES: But does that mean that no one gets brought to the courts and no one
gets prosecuted? Because there are some people that have very serious crimes
to answer, some East Timorese, not just Indonesians.

GUSMAO: Yes of course, of course, very serious crime. I watch it also, I
watch also some images, some pictures where militia members killed and cut in
pieces bodies. Are they the murderers? Are they the mainstream?

MARES: Are they the leaders .

GUSMAO: .the leaders? The problem is this, but I must tell you that in the
new face of returning process of the refugees we talk directly to the
commanders of the militias and we told them please it will not be
reconciliation if there is no justice and you must accept justice. And they
accepted to go to trial, to go to trial. That's why you must remember that I
put the question to all East Timorese people - reconciliation, justice, but
don't forget the need for amnesty. If there is no amnesty no reconciliation
will be in place.

MARES: The problem is at the moment though that there haven't been any
serious prosecutions, there's been one or two people prosecuted and
convicted, and one of our listeners called Didy has sent in a question for
you via the email, and Didy asks you say you've been talking about
reconciliation but won't this set a bad precedent legally? Is this a good
basis upon which to build a legal system if people aren't punished by the due
process of law?

GUSMAO: I'd like to remind Didy that we must not see the problem of justice
and punishment only in September case. We must go back until '75 if we want
all the past can help founding a law system. But if we talk about law only,
justice only there is social justice to be considered also and what the
priority? Bring people to the prison, feeding them, when our people are
demanding for health assistance, health care, for education for their
children. The problem is what is more heavy for the East Timorese leaders? We
and I am saying on the 17th I will welcome a commander of the militia from
the Ainaro district.

MARES: On the 17th of October?

GUSMAO: Yes next week and they who will come they accepted to be on trial.

MARES: Which commander is that?

GUSMAO: Nemezio, second commander, the vice commander, Nemezio Carvarhallo,
he will come with some members will go to trial. But the problem is if it's
only justice of course if the tribunal says you are guilty, you must be
punished with ten-15 years, it is good? Having one or more people in jail for
ten-15-20 years it heals somebody? Psychologically maybe some victims will be
satisfied in the moment, but after that the prisoners, the family of the
prisoners we could not forgive each other and we have our relatives in
prison, we will continue only the environment of intolerance.

MARES: And conflict .

GUSMAO: Conflict.

MARES: What about the alternative though, that if people don't see justice
done through the legal process that they then take matters into their own
hands? That you see attacks on returning militia members, I mean isn't that a
big risk as well?

GUSMAO: Two years ago, after two years, two years after we don't see this as
a problem. I must say in Liquica there were two cases in which one was . one
was violated.

MARES: Beaten up on?

GUSMAO: Yes beaten up and some other cases but in small cases because it was
the time that people were still very hurt with nothing, with no house,
nothing.

MARES: So the wounds were still very fresh?

GUSMAO: Yes, still very fresh, but now that is not the problem.

MARES: One of our other correspondents Gareth Smith has asked the question,
Xanana, why do you resist the prospect of an international war crimes
tribunal for East Timor?

GUSMAO: I not against an international tribunal, I just say that we as East
Timorese we have other priorities and if it is an international tribunal let
international community to set up this, don't demand us to do this. We will
anyway we will help this tribunal but don't give to us this burden because
our burden is more than to seek for justice, we are now, our people are
dying, our children are dying, the elder people are dying without health
care. We are depending on NGO's help in the health, education, we have 24 per
cent of our population under 20 years of age, 44 per cent of our population
under 14, enormous challenges. We have our roads repaired but we know that
next rainy season will destroy everything all over again . so many
difficulties. Agriculture, people are in a subsistence way of production, we
must some way resolve and please let the international community, the duty to
establish this.

MARES: Do you feel to some extent let down by the international community in
the sense that the United Nations did setup a special serious crimes unit in
East Timor with special prosecutors and investigators, but really that
special crimes unit has failed to seriously bring people to justice? It's
been very criticised.

GUSMAO: We established a special tribunal there in the form of a national
council and they must inform the international council previous to the
national consultative council. We work on consensus and the establishment of
the special tribunal because it is by consensus, before I said yes, I request
the attention of all members and they said please is it fair that under the
wrong convention of crimes we will trial five per cent of the crimes
committed in East Timor during 24 years to East Timorese? And they're letting
95 per cent of the crimes without any capacity to catch the criminals. Is it
fair? Is it something big to East Timor to glorify East Timor as a champion
of justice seeking for revenge to East Timorese? After that I said I don't
need answers but I say yes to the special tribunal that we established. The
problem is very complicated, a complicated problem.

MARES: Turning to other matters, one of our listeners Robert Tulip has
written in to ask about the East Timorese still living in camps in West Timor
and whether they want to return to East Timor, whether you'd welcome their
return and what's stopping them from coming back?

GUSMAO: Yes I must say that we started a new phase of returning process and
last month, we met twice with people from Ainaro district and the Suai
district and in second phase of these negotiations I welcomed 996 people from
Ainaro and on the second day more than 500 people from Suai. I am going to
welcome again on 16th and 18th people from Ainaro as I said earlier with
Nemezio Carvarhallo and on the 18th I will receive people from Suai. What is
the cause for the others to remain there? There are many factors, some they
are family of the militias, some family of former Timorese people serving TNI?

MARES: Timorese battalions in Indonesia, army?

GUSMAO: Yes, police force.

MARES: Indonesian police force?

GUSMAO: Yes, Indonesian police force, civil servants. Some relatives of the
families of the militias, but two measured factors were that they were
waiting for the harvest, last harvest, and second, because of the
misinformation it distorts the information about East Timor many of them who
are very afraid of coming before the elections. But I know that after the
elections, after the result of the elections they will come.

MARES: One of the other writers (Donny) has asked us to ask you, we've also
been asked to ask you by one of our correspondents about the relationship now
between the people of East Timor and Indonesia. How do you see that
relationship now given all that's happened?

GUSMAO: Between people now we have a very good relationship, we are trying to
solve the problem of refugees and the militias - to have better relations
with people from West Timor because we believe that if the militias come and
we can reconcile with them they will not be anymore threat on the border, and
we can build a very good, a very tight, close relationship with West Timor,
in common planning of the infrastructure, education, health and some other
fields. With an open border just to facilitate the economic area between the
two people - on both sides. And of course we will achieve peace,
understanding better with Indonesian people who we have good relations with.

MARES: Even if the Indonesian government never prosecutes its military and
those commanders responsible for what happened in East Timor over 25 years?

GUSMAO: We are trying to remind the government, we went there last month to
congratulate, to pay respect to President Megawati. We met the minister of
co-ordination and he told us the same question as I feel in East Timor,
please, we are in a very difficult situation economically, socially,
culturally, ethnically, we have enormous challenges, we will not forget but
it must not be our priority. And we understand of course because we
understand our own estimation with 750-thousand we feel that it is enormous
difficulties what about 200-million?